Amanda Talbot on the creation of the world’s first heart-led AI designer

When we get to the intersection of machines and emotions, we generally tread a very tricky territory. Can the machine feel? Does it have emotions? You can feel the discomfort in the scientific and tech community as we inch closer to this palette of questioning and the fear that entails in the general public. In this interview, we see the role of human interference in working with technology to uphold the values that emboss the core of being human. The question that is most persistent is, therefore, not if the machines can feel but perhaps, what the machines are fed. Although it is to be noted that the functioning of artificial intelligence systems is extremely complex and layered compared to how we previously perceived technology, especially considering the pace at which AI is developing, it certainly is hard to keep up. This makes it more essential for us to bring to the forefront, the questions surrounding the values that truly are essential to humanity—in an attempt to envision a better future with technology while protecting what makes us a harmonious global community.

STIR speaks with Amanda Talbot, founder of Sydney-based Studio Snoop to enquire about their experiments with creating the first A.I designer – Tilly. Amanda emphasises that Tilly is a heart-led designer and a collaborator. She says, "There is kindness in Tilly where equality for humans and nature is super important and that’s something that we should celebrate and encourage rather than try to put down."

Following are the edited excerpts from the conversation...

Deepti Dutt: How would you describe your practice and studio?

Amanda Talbot: I think the main thing about our studio is that we are quite heart-centred in our designs. I am very curious about human behaviour, that's definitely something that has come within the studio, and we focus on a lot of storytelling as well, which is really important. I have put in a lot of investment over the years into the studio in focusing not just on sustainable design, but also on the social aspects of people who fall through the whole process of the whole journey, and in making pieces we know is a very equitable way for everybody. That's super important for me.

Deepti: Is that part of your motivation to have a balanced approach towards designing with human values and designing systems?

Amanda: Yeah, definitely. I am dyslexic and so education was incredibly tricky for me. And with the system that I was brought up in was really tricky. Even the corporate setting in work environments was always a very tricky thing because there are these hard-core systems and I just don't thrive in that situation. So again, I think about systems and how systems improve to work for everyone. It's not that I am not talented or not smarter as the systems just didn't help. I bring that out. I had to find my own ways to really thrive and learn. It’s just that it didn't work in a particular system.

I am always rethinking things which is a really important part. I look at pressure points in design or systems and try rethinking them. My focus remains questioning ways on how does one improve humans and the life forms around? How can we bring the best of everything together? I think I am super passionate about equality in everything. I feel humans put more importance on themselves than nature, and that really bothers me. So, how do you work harmoniously together and bring everything beautifully such that it helps each other?

Deepti: Most of the projects on your website have a very traditional design essence to them, whether it's interiors, architecture or commercial. How did this innovative approach towards AI come about?

Amanda: For me originally, I was a bit of an activist. I found the current state of AI to be super worrying and the boundless future of what we were looking at in the media. And what I was reading was terrifying. Without proactive intel and creative human heart-based AI design. I write books, so I was writing a new book and I was in a certain section where I was focusing on loneliness and why the world has become so lonely and disconnected.

And then what were the solutions out there? I kept coming across everything about what is happening now and how that was combating loners, and I found that to be quite positive. I went down this rabbit hole and fell into this area called Transhuman, which was about people who are into trans-human design, living and futures, and that thing terrified me. But the one key clue that I kept getting out of it was about emotional intelligence. If you could put emotional intelligence into AI, it could have a really amazing outcome for us. I couldn't (do that) because I'm not a tech person, but I could relate to emotional intelligence because, to me, it's about design.

I brought (the specialist) into the studio and thought it would be amazing if we could create this A.I designer that we could feed, and create the brain so we could put all these heart-valued things into it. That's important to us as a studio, intuitively. There are things like kindness and that means not just being kind to a person, but kindness in a general sense with nature and all life. It was also about connectivity, collaboration, and placemaking. We put these values in and I created this big brave (system) for Tilly and my team. They actually got the deep thinking in where I was wanting to go. Tilly started to get formed out.

What we have done with Tilly is we have created this really good baseline starting point and given a focus, so it knows it's a designer, it knows these principles and even things like materials, and that materials are living; timber - it's living, it's got a history, a generational history that somebody makes under that tree. Someone's got that tree, someone’s worked with that tree. Does it turn it into a piece of furniture? So, Tilly knows that whole story and how precious that material actually is. And it's not to be taken for granted at any stage because it has had all these generational moments to it. So that's what we tried to focus on with Tilly and to give it this direction.

Tilly is an experiment and not a solution by any means. – Amanda Talbot

Deepti: When people speak about data, you hear a lot about what kind of data has been taken. You were talking about training Tilly with kindness. Can you tell me a little bit about how you were working with emotions and technology?

Amanda: Well, so when it comes to the emotions, it is literally putting this information into Tilly. I am talking about kindness, happiness, and joy. We fed Tilly images as well, so Tilly has been born with imagery and writing briefs as well.

A really important part that I need to express about Tilly is that, because of what we read all the time in the papers that AI is a replacement (to humans), but what I am trying to create is not a replacement, but actually a collaborator. If we can use this intelligence and give it a really good direction, and it knows it's a collaborator, it could help us in giving quicker solutions, and in making the arguments and the designs way more powerful. That's a really important part for Tilly and I haven't really got that through strongly enough to people. I feel that's a really important message.

Deepti: I am curious to know what is the aesthetic detail or how much of the visual values that come out of this output are based on your own design practice, especially if we're talking about it as an open-source. How much of your own design aesthetic is going to be trained on it?

Amanda: Kindness and biophilic design were imperative for what I was wanting for Milan. When people looked at the pieces, I wanted them to feel that there was some kind of connection to nature and that there is a true story behind these pieces. The pieces had to be truly sustainable and circular in some way.

It's more about the principles and values, not so much the aesthetic. I'm not really interested to go to different architects or designers to be feeding Tilly unless they are really deep in the values and principles of what Tilley entails. Health professionals, environmentalists, and agriculturalists—those working in disaster relief—are the people to feed Tilly the information. And then a studio would be able to use Tilly and direct more of their aesthetic, but they will be pulled up on materiality. They will be helped if they are wanting to work with a health centre or on the urban development of a main street or a tower because it’d have this information from different people working with homeless or young children. What they want for their future, that's the stuff that needs to go into Tilly and then they direct the aesthetic.

Deepti: You also spoke about ecology and materiality within the design. Can you tell us a bit about the project GUS and how that came about from design to production?

Amanda: The world has become very homogenized. We have influenced each other to the point where it's actually quite sad. With Tilly giving information in support of health and wellbeing, that hopefully would help direct design and affect the aesthetics to a point. But it'd be more for the human and the environmental experience.

GUS (derived from the name fungus) is to be made out of mycelium. At the moment we are trying to get the pieces made to show at the London Design Festival, but I don't think we'll get all the pieces done. We are definitely aiming to show some pieces and over time we'll keep getting others done.

We read all the time in the papers that AI is a replacement (to humans), but what I am trying to create is not a replacement, but actually a collaborator. – Amanda Talbot

Deepti: The aspect of connectivity and how it's beautiful that we have been talking about technology this whole time and still, somehow you keep bringing the conversation to connectivity and humanity and compassion. It is amazing!

Amanda: We have got that transhuman world. The machine is going to become a part of us. I feel that stuff is terrifying and some of that is awful, and I am trying to fight for that. But I also do see the true incredibleness of technology and how it can make our lives better. I see that we could put more love into our design because we have time, because suddenly, rather than getting caught on all the technical sides of it, the AI can speed up our process. There are beautiful details that can really engage somebody and make somebody feel better. That's why I feel there is such a gift in this and not the other way. If we treat it the way I am talking about it, then absolutely.

We can really push the importance to that for us as a design community because now's the time to do; or it will be too late. Now is our moment to have this conversation together and what we want out of it. If it means it's going to make Tilly more powerful, to bring a better way for us, a way to make us better and not the other way.

Deepti: There's been a lot of debate around the issue of copyright and where we are getting the data from and how we are using the data: whether the artists or designers would be given the credit they deserve or if it is of other value, whether the source has been credited or not. How do you feel about this debate?

Amanda: If you're just trying to recreate a Wes Anderson or Zaha Hadid building, then you are literally copying, and it's completely wrong. What I think is the difference with what we're trying to do is again, we use Pinterest as examples for mood boards. But if you look at the stuff that we have produced, we may use a reference image or something, but where we have ended is, it's unidentifiable, and to me, it's no different from taking a photo, looking at a building and then using that as part of an inspiration or a texture. It's working that way. We find inspiration in all different ways, in all creativity, and in all life. But if it's absolutely a straight copy of something, why would you do that? You're letting yourself down. Technology is way more powerful than that, and you could do way better than that.

But overall, I think if you really want to be an innovative designer and if you have depth as a designer or an architect, you won't do that. You won’t end up with a copy.

Deepti: But when we talk about how the machine has been trained in order to perform, it does require the machine to have large amounts of data and it's mostly coming from the web as well.

Amanda: I guess for me that's why it's so important, which really is that we are putting information that's actually what people are willing to give us directly and while talking to Tilly directly. It's not us just taking it off and that's what makes Tilly so different. By permission of people who want to work with Tilly and want to create this A.I., that actually could be really beneficial to humanity. We have a company that specialises in timbers, who came into the studio the other day. I got them to quiz Tilly on timbers just to see where we are at. Tilly again focused on FSC and sustainable timbers, but the thing we know, the bombing of trees is not actually biodiversity. But Tilly didn't pick that up and the timbers that Tilly specified—there was nothing wrong with the answers, they were right. But it could have been better. For Tilly, we need to be sitting with the experts on that because that's just a generic that she's told, she's kind of pulled in to get that information of what timbers to use. Tilly will get better and better as we do really start to get to work directly with different organisations and people.

Deepti: I am really excited about Tilly. Where can we know more about its progress?

Amanda: Get on the website. We are a bit behind. There will be way more detail on the website and then we'll keep doing things with Tilly. We are going to be launching in London as well, a collaboration with Tom Dixon that we are doing on a marine environmental project. Tilly keeps doing more projects. We keep getting new experts and I did call out to different people to see who's willing to share. That's the other really important part where AI could have been just a letdown. It could just lay down the road of big corporations and big developers who could control AI. Their focus is going to be on the efficiency of the economics of buildings rather than all those human elements. It is kind of the race to get truly out there.

Deepti: As the final word, how would you summarise Tilly to someone new?

Amanda: Tilly is an experiment and not a solution by any means. We are totally in a new territory, so we are going to make mistakes along the way. But we are trying to take it in the right direction. And it's coming from a place with heart and soul, and I really hope people can see that. I think that's also what we need in design and I hope, it is what more people want.